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Must. Post.

November 18th, 2006

Team Pyro has dragged out the Lordship thread for three days, I can’t see why can’t revisit it. 🙂

One of the comments, by ‘Don Sands’ in the thread now yearning for 400 posts was this:

“we need to walk a fine line” -Phil

“we are sinners and saints all at once! That is the paradox of evangelicalism. The Antinomian and the Perfectionist would abolish the paradox– the one drowning the saint in the sinner, and the other concealing the sinner in the saint.” B. B. Warfield

Which captures the question succinctly.

One of those arguing for a non-Lordship, or at least contra-Phil, Lou Martuneac suggests:

This position means man cannot believe or express faith and repentance unless he has first been regenerated, been born again.

The Bible has a different view. Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Which is fairly cherty-picking scripture, since if you back up in the context of the verse Jesus answers the question:

Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:4ff)

It is an arguable point, I suppose that the 3:16 verse is answering a different question. Nicodemus marveled at how on could be born again, and Jesus is saying it is a doing of the Spirit, not of man. Isn’t that what regeneration is, a work of the Spirit?

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  1. November 21st, 2006 at 14:59 | #1

    Jesus was indeed answering a different question. John 3:9 says, Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? It is after this question that Jesus talks about the only begotten Son.

    Now, I’m not an expert, but my reading of this is that salvation comes from belief, faith, trust, and love in and of Jesus. All else is in response to our salvation.

    Once saved, we get baptized (a visible and outward manifestation of our salvation and repentance), are granted the Holy Spirit (ie – baptized by the Spirit), and do good works. NOTE: Except for salvation itself, none of these are in any particular order.

    Hopefully, as I get into John and study it closer, I’ll gain more insight.

  2. November 21st, 2006 at 15:02 | #2

    And by the way, thank you very much for forwarding my issue to the Pastor. I took what he said into consideration, did some more research into the subject, and prayed a lot about it. I have decided to stay with the Seminary I’m enrolled in now. I may decide to go a different direction with my BA and MA, but for now I’ll stay where I am.

    Thank you for all your help in that matter, Jon. God Bless you.

  3. November 21st, 2006 at 23:56 | #3

    Just wanted to let you know I did a post about this subject. Your two posts on it got me to thinking about it and, well, I guess I was inspired.

    I did give you credit for that inspiration. 😉

  4. November 23rd, 2006 at 20:31 | #4

    Sir:
    What you might have mentioned is that the comment you posted from me is in regard to the extra-biblical position that states regeneration must preced faith. That position is held by most and probably all Lordship advocates.

    Also very important to note that Nicodemus at that time of his visit to Jesus was an unsaved man. He was seeking answers, and Jesus told him how to be saved: One must believe in Him and everlasting life is the result of believing.
    There is much more than John 3:16 that shows the regen before faith position is absurd.

    Is it “look and live” or “live and look?” Is it “Look unto Me, and be ye saved” (Is. 45:22) or “Be ye saved, and look unto Me?” Is it “He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47, cf. John 3:15, 16, 36; 5:24) or “He who hath everlasting life believeth on Me?” Did Paul say to the Philippian jailer “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 6:36) or “Thou shalt be saved, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?”

    Go to my blog, there is a brief, but helpful article I have there. Much more in my book.
    Thanks,
    LM
    http://www.indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com

  5. November 23rd, 2006 at 20:32 | #5

    Sorry, had a typo in the link to my website.

  6. November 23rd, 2006 at 20:35 | #6

    The article at my blog which addresses the regeneration before faith issue is titled:
    Lordship’s (Out of Order) Salvation

  7. November 24th, 2006 at 13:27 | #7

    Good luck on your book Lou. I do wonder how you happened upon my blog, it is a fairly thin crowd, and all I can figure is you found me by googling your name and then browsing to page 3. Not that there is anything wrong with that, except to get one more link to your book.

    The issue is pretty well settled in my mind, and the differences that I read in the comments is the two parties talking past each other. My view is that it takes a miracle to get people to the point where they are willing to believe, and then a continuing miracle to produce any good works in our walk of faith. The actuator of that is the Holy Spirit, and the distribution of that is the will of God. Beyond that we all just cherry pick versus to prove our own points. I’m sure you’ll find broader discussion of this issue at other venues, and peace be with you on your quest.

    Jon.

  8. November 24th, 2006 at 19:26 | #8

    Yes, Google search. I do the search routinely to find where, who and how people are reacting to my book.

    That is all.

    LM

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